The Global Warming Religion

The recently leaked CRU emails expose a web of inconsistencies, manipulations, lies, and disregard for ethical scientific approach. But let’s take all of that aside. Let’s say I am jumping to conclusions. At the very least any inquiring mind would conclude that some of these emails expose some content that may be shedding a slightly different light on a lot of the procedures and calculations that have led to our present day conclusions on climate change.

But what are global warming fanatics across the globe doing instead right now? They are trying to do everything possible to make us believe that these emails are of no significance whatsoever. They are brushing aside the most rampant indicators of manipulation and bias on the part of the research group in question. Heck, they are calling the posts that do nothing but make available the leaked emails “wishful propaganda”. Yes, propaganda. They are going so far as to calling the dissemination of information propaganda! Meanwhile they turn a blind eye to the information leaked.

Again, I am not saying in any way that they should change their minds immediately or jump on these emails. This would be unreasonable to expect. But to refer to someone who publishes uncomfortable information as a propagandist??

This is frantic behavior at its worst. It shows how one loses his objectiveness when a scientific hypothesis turns in to a political idea and then turns into an outright religion. It is very much comparable to the lunatics who would have us believe that the first two humans on earth conversed with a snake, that the earth is 6000 years old, and that a guy named Jesus was born by a virgin, defying all reasonable proof against it while not expecting ANY proof in support of it.

The common link is the belief that if a part of your religion is proven to be wrong, for some mystical reason all the good teachings and ideas that could be derived from it become invalid as well. But there is no problem at all in acknowledging that a part of ones ideology has been a fairytale. It is, in fact, the very precondition of scientific discourse to continue questioning your ideas, hold them up against the unswerving light of reason, discard of false ideas, and refine correct ones.

But we see what happens when a human mind no longer precipitates a cause, but instead the cause controls the human mind and morphs into a crusade.

That being said, here are some more interesting insights from Dr Tim Ball on Watts Up With That:




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28 thoughts on “The Global Warming Religion”

  1. I agree. At the very least people should pause and wonder what is going on. Marginal Revolution’s Tyler Cowen and others have brushed it off as news that is more about academia than about global warming, but I keep asking myself what they would say if this was in any other area of science. It takes quite a bit of faith to believe that there is absolutely nothing remarkable about these emails.

    My personal opinion is that the CRU and the IPCC needs to be investigated, and all legislation needs to be put on indefinite hold. If that means we all burn a fiery death – so be it.

  2. Very good article except for the very opinionated part about your own non-religious faith.

    This statement was rather unnecessary and really makes you appear stupid:

    “This is frantic behavior at its worst. It shows how one loses his objectiveness when a scientific hypothesis turns in to a political idea and then turns into an outright religion. It is very much comparable to the lunatics who would have us believe that the first two humans on earth conversed with a snake, that the earth is 6000 years old, and that a guy named Jesus was born by a virgin, defying all reasonable proof against it while not expecting ANY proof in support of it.”

    Next time keep your non-religious faith out of it OK?

  3. Thank you for your article on the CRU scam. However, you undermine your case by then attacking metaphysical views of any kind, including Christianity. The scholar N.T. Wright has documented the evidence for the historicity of Jesus and refuted the claims of those who have without even checking dismiss the matter, just as is the case with global warming cultists. Similarly, the analytic philosopher Alvin Plantinga has refuted naturalism itself and shown it to be self-refuting. Indeed, science itself is based on metaphysics, and as the sociologist/historian Rodney Stark has shown, science (and the ideas and institutions of liberty and capitalism) only developed as a result of Christian theism. Here are some references:

    The New Testament and the People of God: Christian Origins and the Question of God, by N.T. Wright
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800626818/theindepeende-20

    Jesus and the Victory of God: Christian Origins and the Question of God, by N.T. Wright
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800626826/theindepeende-20

    The Resurrection of the Son of God, The Challenge of Jesus: Rediscovering Who Jesus Was and Is, by N.T. Wright
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0800626796/theindepeende-20

    Warrant and Proper Function, by Alvin Plantinga
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195078640/qid=1146954305/theindepeende-20/002-6508816-9461647

    Warranted Christian Belief, by Alvin Plantinga
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195131932/qid=1146954305/theindepeende-20/002-6508816-9461647

    God and Other Minds: A Study of the Rational Justification of Belief in God, by Alvin Plantinga
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0801497353/qid=1146954305/theindepeende-20/002-6508816-9461647

    The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success, by Rodney Stark
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812972333/qid=1146954305/theindepeende-20/002-6508816-9461647

  4. I will always keep faith out of it, of that you can be sure. I care about facts, not faith. If by “non-religious faith” you mean logic and reason then no, I am absolutely never ever going to keep it out of my analyses. Then I might as well stop writing. I will also not in the slightest accept anybody as a serious and rational thinker, if he believes that snakes can talk, that the earth is only 6000 years old, and that virgins give birth. That stating such simple truths arouses so much attention simply baffles me.

  5. @Nima

    I will not repost my full comment that I made in response to your article on the campaign for liberty website, but it is calling people “lunatics” who believe in the virgin birth of Jesus that is most troubling about your statement. It appears that you do not believe in miraculous events that science or logic has no clean explanation for (virgin birth, and most likely the belief that God exists and created the universe and man). My argument to you is that you should not summarily dismiss and ridicule people of Christian faith (the virgin birth of Jesus being a critical aspect of His divinity) who also believe in God and creation. Although Einstein was not a man of Christian faith, his knowledge of the universe and intense study still allowed him to come to the conclusion that God indeed existed and that the order of the universe was set in motion by God. Because he believed in the miracle of God, would you dismiss Einstein as a lunatic as well?

    I can relate to your thinking that miracles such as Jesus’ virgin birth are preposterous because 10 years ago I was a dogmatic atheist who firmly believed in evolutionary theory, would argue that Christians are idiotic people who are just weak minded, even swore at the television when a Christian athlete would say stuff like “I’d like to thank my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”. That was until I actually picked up a bible and read the gospel of John and understood that Jesus died for me and wants to save me. Having carried the weight of my poor decisions and guilt with me for 23 or so years, I was ready to lay my burdens down, receive His forgiveness, grace, the Holy Spirit and promise of eternal life for my soul. Science and logic are excellent tools that I enjoy using in my field of work today! But science could do nothing to help my soul.

  6. OK, I will repeat what I already said on the C4L post:

    Regarding the following statement:

    “Although Einstein was not a man of Christian faith, his knowledge of the universe and intense study still allowed him to come to the conclusion that God indeed existed and that the order of the universe was set in motion by God. Because he believed in the miracle of God, would you dismiss Einstein as a lunatic as well?”

    No I would not and nowhere did I say that I would. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    “It appears that you do not believe in miraculous events that science or logic has no clean explanation for (virgin birth,…”

    You are absolutely right. I do not believe that a virgin gave birth. I am not sure what would be so troubling about this. I also don’t believe that snakes talk (because they are dumb beasts which lack the rationality for language), or that the earth is 6000 years old (because archeologists discovered numerous bones and artifacts that go back as far as 40000(!!) years), that our frustrations are caused by Theton levels in our body, that a spacelord named Zenu is more than an invention of a smart science fiction writer, that 72 virgins await martyrs in heaven, that a Spaghetti monster lives behind the hills, etc. etc.

    That I am having to discuss such basic facts of reality vs. fiction will otherwise intelligent people simply baffles me.

    “…and most likely the belief that God exists and created the universe and man).”

    Where did I say that? Who am I to know the answer to that question? But let’s assume I did not believe that such a God exists. So what? What does it have to do with anything? I simply don’t care. What I do know is that those people who claim they know, absolutely don’t know and are lost in delusion and dogmatism.

    “Having carried the weight of my poor decisions and guilt with me for 23 or so years, I was ready to lay my burdens down, receive His forgiveness, grace, the Holy Spirit and promise of eternal life for my soul. Science and logic are excellent tools that I enjoy using in my field of work today! But science could do nothing to help my soul.”

    It is, to be sure, not the strongest case you are making for your faith to say that it helps your soul (in fact it severely weakens it). There are many things people tell themselves because it helps them. But I am OK with this. What you believe or don’t believe in is up to you, not to me. So long as you leave me alone with it, it has no bearing at all on other social matters we may most likely agree on.

    Please note that in my article I also point out the importance of having the ability to separate the good and true religious teachings and ideas from the bad and false ones, just as it is with any system of ethics that is presented to you.

  7. I’m assuming you are the moderator of your own site…. I sincerely hope that you do not decide to end this discussion because imo this subject warrants debate like this and I hope you also think so.

    In your last statement:
    “But I am OK with this. What you believe or don’t believe in is up to you, not to me. So long as you leave me alone with it, it has no bearing at all on other social matters we may most likely agree on.”

    To slam Christians and their belief in the virgin birth of Jesus as lunacy is probably not the best way to delve into your opinions publicly about Christianity if you wish to be left alone. If you do not want to hear a defense of faith, then do likewise as you have stated… leave statements labeling Christians out of your work. Or is it your intention to publicly present your thoughts about Christianity and the bible (or other belief systems for that matter) and not allow a person of faith to discuss their thoughts and present an alternative view.

    I do thank you for sharing your opinions, however; because it has afforded me the opportunity stop and think and ask myself why do I believe in Jesus, the bible, and God in general? If nothing else I hope this also has caused you to stop and think about what you believe and why you believe it.

    This statement (with mine in quotes first):
    ““…and most likely the belief that God exists and created the universe and man).””

    Where did I say that? Who am I to know the answer to that question? But let’s assume I did not believe that such a God exists. So what? What does it have to do with anything? I simply don’t care. What I do know is that those people who claim they know, absolutely don’t know and are lost in delusion and dogmatism.”

    There is a very logical progression linking your statement that belief in Jesus’ virgin birth is akin to being a lunatic to the general existence of God / Creator. If at any point you disagree with this logic, feel free to share what part does not make sense:

    Jesus’ virgin birth = belief in a miracle / supernatural act of God
    The existence of God = belief in a being with supernatural power who has ability to create miracles
    God’s creation of the universe and man = A series of miraculous actions by God

    If you believe on one hand that the virgin birth is an impossible miraculous event, then by logic the much larger scale miraculous events of God creating humans, the earth, the rest of the universe must also be impossible. If one were to believe that God is real and that God created man then by the very nature of God’s ability to do this, His coming to earth in the form of Jesus, and entering a virgin woman’s womb would seem to be quite possible, if not seemingly a very easy miracle for Him to perform. Therefore sir, by logic, the concepts of the existence of God / Creation and the virgin birth of Jesus are very much inseparable in the fact that they both require the basic belief in miracles / supernatural actions by God.

    About Einstein… his belief that God indeed exists and is the ultimate Creator indicates that he believed in a supernatural / incredibly miraculous event in the creation of world as we know it by God. If you do not disagree with the logical progression stated above, and Einstein’s quotes about God then let me ask you again: Do you also believe Einstein to be a lunatic along with Christians for believing that there is a God with miraculous / supernatural power as well? This is not putting words in your mouth, only asking you a valid question that by logical deduction should be answered if you truly believe what you say you do: that belief in Jesus virgin birth (ie a miracle of God) is akin to lunacy.

    As far as your statements that me needing Jesus to forgive my sins and save my soul is a sign of weakness, well sir… by all means label me the WEAKEST of the WEAK. I gladly stand on the promises of Christ, rather than the theories of man when it comes to the sake of my soul.

  8. “If you believe on one hand that the virgin birth is an impossible miraculous event, then by logic the much larger scale miraculous events of God creating humans, the earth, the rest of the universe must also be impossible.”

    Yes, maybe … but maybe not. I did not say it MUST be impossible anywhere. From the “evidence” I have been presented, however, it is rather unlikely.

    “If one were to believe that God is real and that God created man then by the very nature of God’s ability to do this, His coming to earth in the form of Jesus, and entering a virgin woman’s womb would seem to be quite possible, if not seemingly a very easy miracle for Him to perform.”

    Did I say anywhere that I believe “God created man”? I don’t even know what this is supposed to mean. You are getting lost in flimsy and boring platitudes. So your “logic” already ends there. But just for your own sake, I will play along and assume I believe something like “God is real and that God created man”. Then “His coming to earth in the form of Jesus, and entering a virgin woman’s womb would seem to be quite possible, if not seemingly a very easy miracle for Him to perform.” Yes, it would then be possible for him to do such a thing. But you know what would also be possible: For him to NOT do such a thing. Again, your logic ends.

    “Therefore sir, by logic, the concepts of the existence of God / Creation and the virgin birth of Jesus are very much inseparable in the fact that they both require the basic belief in miracles / supernatural actions by God.”

    Unfortunately there is no “therefore” because there is no logical connection/consistency in your statements. But again, I will help you and act like there was. Then once again you uttered a false statement. If A were to imply B and C, this does not make B and C inseparable. But your “logic” faces another problem. As I explained above, your “God” could choose NOT to perform any of the miracles you are listing above. Therefore, A does not even imply B.

    “Do you also believe Einstein to be a lunatic along with Christians for believing that there is a God with miraculous / supernatural power as well? This is not putting words in your mouth…”

    Actually, now you are not only putting words in my mouth, but you are also putting words in Einstein’s mouth. But to answer your question once again: No, I do not think Einstein was a lunatic.

    “As far as your statements that me needing Jesus to forgive my sins and save my soul is a sign of weakness, well sir… by all means label me the WEAKEST of the WEAK.”

    OK, buddy. This is getting ridiculous. You need to read what I write and not what you wish to read into it. Nowhere did I label you weak. I said your CASE is weak.

    All this talk above is idle. If you are so hell bent on believing in the virgin birth and turning water in to wine and talking snakes, then why don’t you simply prove it to me. I’d be happy to talk if anyone of the Jesus/Abraham/Mohammed/Zenu/Spaghettimonster/Joonjoon followers out there were capable of presenting me with convincing and reasonable evidence to support their (at best) questionable propositions …

  9. Please read Einstein’s quotes below. Am I really putting words in his mouth?

    Knowing God’s Thoughts
    “I want to know how God created this world. I’m not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.”
    – From E. Salaman, “A Talk With Einstein,” The Listener 54 (1955), pp. 370-371, quoted in Jammer, p. 123.

    Could God Have Done It Differently?
    “What I am really interested in, is knowing whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom.”
    – C. Seelig, Helle Zeit-Dunkle Zeit (Europa Verlag, Zuürich, 1956), p.72, quoted in Jammer, p. 124.

    We can agree to disagree about the logic behind my statements and how they are all linked…

    I do not believe I am putting words in your mouth either, simply asking you to defend your own statements given an alternative view. You are correct, however; that I did misinterpret your statement of presenting a weak case to infer that I was showing weakness. I do apologize for that.

    Asking me for proof of miracles that occurred over 2000 years ago is kind of like me asking you for proof that Attila the Hun was not a mythical person. The only proof you have that Attila the Hun was a real person is that he is described in writings by people of that time period and you have to decide whether you trust those writings as truthful or conjured by man. Well the bible is also the only proof I can provide to you in regards to those miracles as those events were documented by the eye witnesses of that time period as well.

    If you do wish to dig deeper and want to go on a fact finding mission about the bible, then I’d recommend you read through the gospels of John, Mark, Luke, and Matthew which contain the records of many miraculous events, research the loads of archaeological information that people have done on the bible.

    Like I said before, 10 years ago, I was a hardcore, dogmatic atheist who asked Christians how it was possible they could believe in creation when evolution was so obvious. Instead of taking other people’s words for it, I verbalized a question to God Himself and said “God I have no idea who you are, who are you? I want to know who you are”. Well, for me He indeed answered my sincere and open question.

  10. “Asking me for proof of miracles that occurred over 2000 years ago is kind of like me asking you for proof that Attila the Hun was not a mythical person.”

    But I did not claim Attila the Hun was real. Why are you evading my question? All I wanted to show is that you are unable to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Adam and Eve talked to a snake. You have confirmed this with your own response.

  11. I did answer your question quite clearly… read the bible and the testimonies of those individuals that have been historically recorded. This is the only evidence we have of those events. How would anyone expect to find physical evidence of events that occurred 2000 years ago… besides what archaeologists are limited to being able to find.

    Your question has no logical answer, however; when these miracles leave no physical evidence behind after they have been performed. Or do you wish for me to find Mary’s bones, and somehow prove through those bones that she was a virgin who had a child? Find me a scientist who is able to determine this kind of information from a woman’s bones who died 5 years ago… let alone 2000 or so years ago.

    That is not an evading the answer to your question at all…. it is up to you whether you believe those people who saw what Jesus did and recorded it in detail in the bible. Either they lied and subverted the truth to deceive and push their agendas (if so, then it seems many of Jesus’ own disciples and many other Christians who witnessed the events died for a lie), or they were truthful accounts of what they witnessed, miracles and all.

    Here is a simple yes or no question for you then: Do you believe that Attila the Hun was a real person?
    If so, what physical evidence do you have that he actually existed?
    If you can produce no physical evidence but believe he existed, then WHY do you believe he was a real person and not made up?

    This is not evasion whatsoever, simply asking you what you believe and whether you have physical proof to defend what you believe also. How do you answer this basic question?

    Let me also cut to the chase with a yes or no question for you as well: Do you believe in God?

  12. “Or do you wish for me to find Mary’s bones, and somehow prove through those bones that she was a virgin who had a child? Find me a scientist who is able to determine this kind of information from a woman’s bones who died 5 years ago… let alone 2000 or so years ago.”

    No, in cases where you have no evidence, I merely ask that you use your brain, your reason, and add up 1 and 1, and then tell me whether you think it’s 2 or 5.

    “Here is a simple yes or no question for you then: Do you believe that Attila the Hun was a real person?
    If so, what physical evidence do you have that he actually existed?
    If you can produce no physical evidence but believe he existed, then WHY do you believe he was a real person and not made up?”

    I think it is possible because I have read reasonable, uninterested accounts about his existence. Let me also point out here that I have reason to believe that a guy names Jesus and a gal named Mary once existed, based on reasonable, uninterested, and credible historical accounts. It is not the most ridiculous thing to believe that a certain historical figure with numerous reasonable and credible accounts existed. Did I question this anywhere?

    “Let me also cut to the chase with a yes or no question for you as well: Do you believe in God?”

    I don’t know what that question means so I am unable to answer it. If you tell me what it means then I can answer it.

  13. “Let me also cut to the chase with a yes or no question for you as well: Do you believe in God?”

    I don’t know what that question means so I am unable to answer it. If you tell me what it means then I can answer it.

    Do you believe in a supernatural being (God) who created the world and then created man?

    “I think it is possible because I have read reasonable, uninterested accounts about his existence. Let me also point out here that I have reason to believe that a guy names Jesus and a gal named Mary once existed, based on reasonable, uninterested, and credible historical accounts. It is not the most ridiculous thing to believe that a certain historical figure with numerous reasonable and credible accounts existed. Did I question this anywhere?”

    I didn’t say you questioned anything about this… I’m simply asking you questions about what you believe. Again, not putting words in your mouth…

    “I think it is possible because I have read reasonable, uninterested accounts about his existence.”

    A few more questions:

    OK… so can I reasonably say that you are willing to believe historical writings as having the potential to be valid without demanding physical proof that what has been written is true?

    What do you mean by uninterested accounts and what exactly makes an account uninterested?

    Have you personally read through the text of the bible that gives the account of Mary and Jesus virgin birth? If not, would you be willing to do so?

  14. “Do you believe in a supernatural being (God) who created the world and then created man?”

    What is “supernatural”? What is a “being”? What do you mean by “created”?

    “OK… so can I reasonably say that you are willing to believe historical writings as having the potential to be valid without demanding physical proof that what has been written is true?”

    Yes, if they seem plausible and reasonable and if the sources are credible and if they are corroborated by independent scholars of history, I am willing to believe that there is a high likelihood that those accounts are somewhat accurate, meaning probably 50-60 percent of it may be true.

    “What do you mean by uninterested accounts and what exactly makes an account uninterested?”

    When he has no political or pecuniary interest in others believing the story.

    “Have you personally read through the text of the bible that gives the account of Mary and Jesus virgin birth?

    I believe I have but it was in my elementary school days in my Religion class so I don’t remember a whole lot of it anymore.

    “If not, would you be willing to do so?”

    Yes, if I saw any purpose in this. But I have to say I much rather read a book written by Murray Rothbard, Ayn Rand, or Ludwig von Mises because they help me understand society. I don’t expect to learn much from reading fairy tales …

  15. Hmmmm…. I think you mentioned something before about question evasion?

    Here’s the Merriam-Webster’s online definition of God (capitalized version) that I’m referring to:
    “the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe”

    Once again let me ask this question: Do you believe (based on the definition above) that this Being described exists? Yes or No?

    “I believe I have but it was in my elementary school days in my Religion class so I don’t remember a whole lot of it anymore.

    ahhh religion classes… i remember my days of going to them as well. Most of the time I just mocked the Hail Mary stuff and wanted to be a wise guy and hit on the girls in the class. The priest told my parents that I was “very deficient in my religious studies”. I stopped going after 1 year…

    “Yes, if I saw any purpose in this. But I have to say I much rather read a book written by Murray Rothbard, Ayn Rand, or Ludwig von Mises because they help me understand society. I don’t expect to learn much from reading fairy tales …”

    OK…

    Are you saying the Bible is a book of fairy tales?
    From what you have stated one could very easily come to this conclusion and I don’t want to put words in your mouth as you have mentioned before.

    If you are describing the bible… then I’m a bit confused by this: How does one form such a strong opinion about a book that they can’t recall what it actually states? Shouldn’t something be read and understood first before formulating an opinion?

    While you are thinking about these questions, here’s something else to consider:
    Here’s a Ron Paul quote that I found online regarding his faith in Christ:

    “I have never been one who is comfortable talking about my faith in the political arena. In fact, the pandering that typically occurs in the election season I find to be distasteful. But for those who have asked, I freely confess that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior, and that I seek His guidance in all that I do.”

    If Jesus Christ is his personal savior as is stated and he does seek His guidance in all that he does, then one can probably also make the assumption that he most likely believes in the virgin birth of Jesus as well. Unless of course he happens to be an incredibly rare self proclaiming Christian who believes the personal savior part about Jesus, but not the virgin birth story. Seeing that you post on the campaign for liberty website which appears to be very pro-Ron Paul, I’m curious what your thoughts are on this…

  16. ““the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe” Once again let me ask this question: Do you believe (based on the definition above) that this Being described exists? Yes or No?”

    You have now made your question even less specific than before. What is “perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness”. What is a “ruler of the universe”? I simply don’t know what that means. I know what a human being is. I know what land on earth is. I know what a good is that has been created by transforming land, I know that humans interact through exchange … but I have never been out in the universe, I have never seen a ruler of the universe or any such things, I don’t know what “perfect in power” is supposed to mean. All these terms are very fuzzy and shallow. So I guess as far as I am able to understand your question, my answer would be: No I don’t. (But maybe I am not understanding your question.)

    “If you are describing the bible… then I’m a bit confused by this: How does one form such a strong opinion about a book that they can’t recall what it actually states? Shouldn’t something be read and understood first before formulating an opinion?”

    Yes, something should be read and understood first before formulating an opinion. Did I utter an opinion about whether or not I like the bible anywhere?

    “If Jesus Christ is his personal savior as is stated and he does seek His guidance in all that he does, then one can probably also make the assumption that he most likely believes in the virgin birth of Jesus as well.”

    No, why make that assumption? I don’t like to make assumptions, I’d rather stick to facts. But then, even if he did, how does it matter? What I do appreciate so much about Ron Paul in this respect is that he has “never been one who is comfortable talking about his faith in the political arena.” – That’s exactly how I like it. Because I simply DON’T CARE. I’d rather listen to him talk about all the stuff that I care so deeply about and that very few other people even touch on.

  17. As far as your fuzziness about God, then hear are passages from Genesis concerning God:

    “1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

    2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

    6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

    9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

    11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

    14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

    20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

    24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    27 So God created man in his own image,
    in the image of God he created him;
    male and female he created them.

    The text makes a clear declaration about God as the Creator of the things you admit to knowing about: “I know what a human being is. I know what land on earth is”.

    Question: Do you believe that God, declared as the Creator of humans and the earth you know, exists?

    “What I do appreciate so much about Ron Paul in this respect is that he has “never been one who is comfortable talking about his faith in the political arena.” – That’s exactly how I like it. Because I simply DON’T CARE. I’d rather listen to him talk about all the stuff that I care so deeply about and that very few other people even touch on.”

    Your statement “I simply DON’T CARE” does not seem to line up with your original article statements declaring it lunacy to believe in the virgin birth of Jesus without proof. If you truly don’t care, well then let’s come full circle… why were you compelled to publicly post your opinions about Jesus’ virgin birth in the first place? You could have very easily left that out… and we most likely wouldn’t be having this discussion now. I guess I’m just not a fan of being labeled as a lunatic for believing in Jesus’ virgin birth without proof (when no-one on this earth has the capability of providing unquestionable proof that this did or did not occur) especially when the person who calls this out doesn’t really know where he stands (or isn’t willing to admit it) on the subject of God. Jesus’ own claim that He is God and the biblical statement that God came to earth through the miraculous virgin birth by way of Mary’s body is very clear…God caused this event to happen… so to not know where you stand in regards to belief or disbelief in God is completely relevant to this discussion.

    It’s especially peculiar that you’d be willing to make this statement on a pro Ron Paul website when he is a professing Christian and you have no idea what he believes on the subject of Jesus’ virgin birth. I understand that you prefer to stay to facts… well here’s a fact for you: To say that you don’t care about Ron Paul’s religious beliefs does not change the fact that your statement calls into question a key element of Christian faith (Jesus’ virgin birth) and hence Christians such as Ron Paul for his religious beliefs. This is not me putting words in your mouth… this is what your very own words imply. To say that it was simply a statement of fact is incorrect. You stated an opinion which has called a principle of Christian “faith” into question as being lunacy.

    I do appreciate what Ron Paul has contributed in the economic arena… which is exactly what lead me to the CFL website to begin with… not his religious beliefs. As a Christian man I also have a TON of respect for him openly sharing that Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior when asked about his religious beliefs.

  18. “Question: Do you believe that God, declared as the Creator of humans and the earth you know, exists?”

    I don’t understand why you had to recite the story of creation that someone obviously made up at some point. But as far as I understand your strange question, let me repeat what I have already said: No, I don’t believe that that particular God you are talking about there exists.

    “To say that you don’t care about Ron Paul’s religious beliefs does not change the fact that your statement calls into question a key element of Christian faith …”

    You are saying that the belief in the virgin birth is a key element of Christian faith, not me. I would think that you would consider the concepts of peace and compassion that actually have an impact of how humans live on earth would be more relevant to you in defense of your faith. An event that has absolutely no bearing on our life on earth today and on top of that sounds plain silly doesn’t embolden your case for Christianity.

    “… and hence Christians such as Ron Paul for his religious beliefs. This is not me putting words in your mouth… this is what your very own words imply.”

    It is you who are saying that Ron Paul believes in Jesus’ virgin birth, not me. But to be very clear: I am calling into question stories that people made up, have no satisfactory proof for, and that are plain silly. Whether it be the story of virgin birth, reincarnation, the Spaghetti monster, or the big Joon Joon behind the hills. To me they are completely out of the question. If you want to believe, for whatever reason, that some of them are true, then please, feel free to do so. But don’t expect me to not voice my opinion about their validity.

  19. OK I feel like we’re getting somewhere… but you are backpedaling quite a bit to now want to clarify that your opinions are concerning the story of Jesus’ virgin birth and not the people who believe in it without proof…. cause that part in your post about “lunatics who would have us believe” doesn’t quite seem to support that. That’s okay… I think we all say some things we wish maybe we could have said differently. Being that I’m one of those “lunatics” who does believe in God and Jesus and His whole virgin birth thing without proof… well I forgive you for labeling me a lunatic.

    “You are saying that the belief in the virgin birth is a key element of Christian faith, not me. I would think that you would consider the concepts of peace and compassion that actually have an impact of how humans live on earth would be more relevant to you in defense of your faith. An event that has absolutely no bearing on our life on earth today and on top of that sounds plain silly doesn’t embolden your case for Christianity.”

    Well, maybe you should learn a bit about the principles of Christianity and those people who call themselves Christians before you speak your opinions. I’m not the one who made the statement and “inadvertently” bashed a critical part of the Christian belief about Jesus’ divinity and virgin birth (after all that is why He had to be born through a virgin in the 1st place… to maintain that divinity part), you did…. maybe you should thank me for making you aware of Ron Paul’s Christian faith and the very high probability that your posted opinion about this core Christian belief as lunacy is quite relevant to his beliefs as a confessing Christian,…. your welcome. Twist it how you may, it doesn’t change that fact. I’m just sharing with you some facts about what confessing Christians actually believe… this is not my opinion, as I did not create Christianity, I read what the bible has to say about it and shared this with you… being that you are very much opposed to actually reading the bible.

    I see you value education by your preferred reading list… well riddle me this: why is the bible still to this day the most widely read book of all time and #2 isn’t even close. I guess “the fairy tales” have a certain ring to them that has just kept people entertained for all these years…. Maybe it’s that most of us millions and millions of people who choose to read the bible and believe in God and what it says are just uneducated, simple minded folk who like to believe that fairy tales are real?

    Maybe those founding fathers of this country were those very lunatics who believed in Jesus’ virgin birth as well…. after all, 55 of 58 of them were believed to be orthodox Christians and George Washington is quoted as saying, “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
    Again, twist it however you choose, I’m sharing facts with you here about what your lunacy comments imply… this is not my opinion, simply the facts…. Maybe we should have all this belief in Jesus and Christian lunacy stuff stricken from all of our country’s foundational documents, eh?

    Ahhh… very good – yes Jesus did tell His followers quite a few peaceful, and very wise sayings that people (even non-Christians) respect and believe to be excellent teachings. But you know what… it’s that part about Him declaring himself to be God that catches people up, because after all people who call themselves God today…. well we know what we think of them, right? LOONIES!

    Well then, tell me why anyone would want to follow the teachings of a man who in actuality should be labeled a lunatic by today’s standards for claiming to be God? So I believe it’s up to you to determine if He indeed is a lunatic, or actually who He claims to be: God…. but it seems quite clear you are very content to not even consider this…

    ahhh… to pick and choose parts of the bible that we wish to believe… well how different in the end is that from the global warming scientists who chose to highlight only the data that supported their own belief system rather than the actual WHOLE TRUTH!

    “An event that has absolutely no bearing on our life on earth today and on top of that sounds plain silly doesn’t embolden your case for Christianity”

    Correct, it may have absolutely no bearing on your life on earth today, but actually, yes it does when the country you live in was founded by Christian men based on Christian biblical principles… and the freedoms you enjoy today are due to the sacrifice and spilled blood of many many many Christian, Jesus, bible believing men.

  20. “after all, 55 of 58 of them were believed to be orthodox Christians”… I stand corrected: 52 of the 56 signers of the Declaration were determined to be of Christian faith….. The actual # of founding fathers is subjective as to who actually is a founding father.

  21. @Nima
    Virgin Birth?

    i dont know I wasnt there… but stranger things have happened.

    and besides the point…. the life and message of Jesus Christ has impacted millions of people, including myself, so there is no sense in doubting that.

    believing a talking snake? i dont know either, but I know many people believe the forked tongues of (most) politicians… so what does THIS say about THAT Mr. smart guy?

  22. @Michael

    “Virgin Birth?
    i dont know I wasnt there… but stranger things have happened.”

    Like …?

    “and besides the point…. the life and message of Jesus Christ has impacted millions of people, including myself, so there is no sense in doubting that.”

    Yes, did I doubt it anywhere?

    “believing a talking snake? i dont know either, but I know many people believe the forked tongues of (most) politicians… so what does THIS say about THAT Mr. smart guy?”

    Thanks for confirming my point. I am not one of those many people who believes in the nonsense uttered by our dear politicians. But on that same token, I don’t believe in the hideous stories of the virgin birth and the talking snake either, no matter HOW MANY people do …

  23. I’m curious if you have a response to my last post from a few days ago…
    Here is some more good reading specifically concerning Jesus’ birth:

    The Birth of Jesus Christ (NIV Matthew 1)
    18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

    20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[c] because he will save his people from their sins.”

    22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23″The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[d]—which means, “God with us.”

    24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

    The Birth of Jesus Foretold (NIV Luke 1)
    26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

    29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.”

    34″How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

    35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God.”

    38″I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” Then the angel left her.

  24. I think I made my position pretty clear. I am not sure what these excerpts from the bible are supposed to accomplish. Is anything still unclear about what I said?

  25. Just wanted to share the actual text from the book that you have such a problem with but don’t actually know what it specifically says…. I like dealing in facts too, so now you have the facts of what is being claimed about the virgin birth in front of you.

    At least read and understand that which you wish to ridicule… If anything I’m hoping to at least help you know more about your own beliefs and why you believe what you do.

    I’d also like to go back to one of my original points since you now have admitted that you don’t believe in the God of creation according to the bible references I previously posted.

    Albert Einstein was a non-Christian scientist who spent way more time studying the universe and its governing laws than you or I or even most people on this earth, and he is arguably one of the most brilliant scientists of all time. His studying led him to the following humbling conclusions and quotes about the existence of God:

    “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God”

    “My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.”

    “I want to know God’s thoughts; the rest are details.”

    “God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically.”

    “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.” (I especially like this quote, because although I have studied in science and engineering, I have yet to see how science has proven that God does not exist or that Jesus is not God)

    Now if Albert Einstein studied and comprehended so much more about our universe and drew these conclusions, do you still feel comfortable about your stance on God? You may be well versed in economic theories, principles and people, but have you studied enough about the creation of this world you live in to disagree with Albert Einstein’s humbled conclusions about how little he actually knows in comparison to the Creator of the universe when he is one of the most brilliant men ever?

    Now belief that there is a supernatural Creator who set this world which we live in into motion is STEP 1. Once you can get to this point, then the possibilities of other supernatural biblical events such as Jesus’ virgin birth, etc. would seem quite possible for the hands of such a Creator. To argue that God may not have CHOSEN to come to the earth in the form of a human named Jesus does not exclude the possibility that HE DID CHOOSE to do so. To simply dismiss it altogether without proper thought or research because it does not match up to your own world view about life is foolishness. As a former dogmatic atheist I know this firsthand. The more I realized I couldn’t defend my beliefs as an atheist and actually didn’t have answers to disprove God, the more dogmatic I became… to cover my insecurities. Until the day that I opened my eyes and my mind and realized that there is much more to this world we live in than my dogmatic and arrogant ways. Jesus Christ is alive and well today through the Holy Spirit He spoke of in the bible. I know this not because I saw the Spirit, but because I asked who He was, and He answered me.

    Here are more quotes by Albert Einstein about asking questions and having open eyes and an open mind….

    “The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.”

    “The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.”

    I’d recommend that you take Albert’s advice and ask more questions. It appears your dogmatism is your biggest barrier… it used to be mine as well.

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